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#21
Pusher

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Ваще на надоело лить сопли по этому поводу?
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#22
YO

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Мне посчастливилось побывать в "Близнецах" чуть меньше года до трагедии...
Признаюсь, жутковато было смотреть репортаж о теракте после!
Ощущение нереальности происходящего!! Шок!!
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#23
Rusik

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Сразу скажу, я не сторонник ни арабов ни америкотов, но больше всего мне "понравилось", когда американский житель говорил: "что же они сделали, они стока невинного народу убили". А вот когда каждый день американские солдаты убивают невинных арабских жителей , на их территории, то это нормально?!?!?!?! :) А вот когда погибли америкоты так эта проблема на весь мир.
Моё ИМХО: не лезьте америкоты в чужие проблемы -живы будете.
И почему американцы всегда хотят все проблемы мира решить, а не допустим, какойто там гондурас, а потому, что американцы сами себя считают пупами земли, вот и получают что заслуживают. И будут получать. Они своими левыми взглядами и движениями америкоты сами вызывают ненависть на себя и террор.
Таковы реалии современного мира
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#24
YO

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А что это Усама бин Ладен у нас молчит?!
ps Встречал где-то здесь ник Osama Bin Laden... :)
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#25
Oz

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Пожалуйста, бывшие диктатуры: Германия, Япония, Италия, Венгрия, Филиппины.  В Южной Корее где были они - сами знаете что, а в Северной - миллионы с голоду пухнут.  Итд.  Кроме того, были и провалы типа Никарагуа, Гватемалы или Гренады.  Иногда Штаты поддерживали и диктаторские режимы в целях своей выгоды, все было, но примеры постепенного установления демократии очень даже есть.

да, точно ... я тоже это видел, по каналу дискавери... там ишшо гаварили что американцы вайну сами выйграли ... :)
Вы что дейстительно считаете, что амерЫка несет всем благо, прямо архангел Михаил на бомбовозе? :laugh:


На Ваш последний вопрос отвечу, что я так не считаю. И войну мы тоже не обсуждали.

Вы отклоняетесь от обсуждения по существу. Вы спросили, есть ли примеры стран, где после американской оккупации установились демократия и существенно улучшилась экономика. Я такие примеры привел. Там американцы действительно были в качестве оккупантов. И там действительно установились демократия и существенно улучшилась экономика. Для этого даже Дискавери смотреть не надо, достаточно просто туда съездить и посмотреть, как там живут простые люди. Что можете сказать по существу?
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#26
minimalist

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у американцев есть чувство превосходства над остальным миром, эта да. почему? да потому что у них страна самая продвинутая во всех отношениях. никуда и ехать не надо, каждый штат - государство в государстве. самодостаточные люди, которым чихать на остальной мир, по большому счету.
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#27
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старая статейка, опубликованная в зе гардиан анлимитед во время фаганской кампании. высылаю несколькими постами.

**PART I**
'Brutality smeared in peanut butter'

Why America must stop the war now. By Arundhati Roy

As darkness
deepened over Afghanistan on Sunday October 7 2001, the US government,
backed by the International Coalition Against Terror (the new, amenable
surrogate for the United Nations), launched air strikes against
Afghanistan. TV channels lingered on computer-animated images of cruise
missiles, stealth bombers, tomahawks, "bunker-busting" missiles and Mark 82
high drag bombs. All over the world, little boys watched goggle-eyed and
stopped clamouring for new video games.

The UN, reduced now to an ineffective acronym, wasn't even asked to mandate
the air strikes. (As Madeleine Albright once said, "We will behave
multilaterally when we can, and unilaterally when we must.") The "evidence"
against the terrorists was shared amongst friends in the "coalition".

After conferring, they announced that it didn1t matter whether or not the
"evidence" would stand up in a court of law. Thus, in an instant, were
centuries of jurisprudence carelessly trashed. Nothing can excuse or
justify an act of terrorism, whether it is committed by religious
fundamentalists, private militia, people's resistance movements - or
whether it's dressed up as a war of retribution by a recognised government.
The bombing of Afghanistan is not revenge for New York and Washington. It
is yet another act of terror against the people of the world. Each innocent
person that is killed must be added to, not set off against, the grisly
toll of civilians who died in New York and Washington.

People rarely win wars, governments rarely lose them. People get killed.

Governments moult and regroup, hydra-headed. They use flags first to
shrink-wrap people's minds and smother thought, and then as ceremonial
shrouds to bury their willing dead. On both sides, in Afghanistan as well
as America, civilians are now hostage to the actions of their own
governments.

Unknowingly, ordinary people in both countries share a common bond - they
have to live with the phenomenon of blind, unpredictable terror. Each batch
of bombs that is dropped on Afghanistan is matched by a corresponding
escalation of mass hysteria in America about anthrax, more hijackings and
other terrorist acts.
**END OF PART I**
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#28
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**PART II**
There is no easy way out of the spiralling morass of terror and brutality
that confronts the world today. It is time now for the human race to hold
still, to delve into its wells of collective wisdom, both ancient and
modern. What happened on September 11 changed the world forever. Freedom,
progress, wealth, technology, war - these words have taken on new meaning.
Governments have to acknowledge this transformation, and approach their new
tasks with a modicum of honesty and humility. Unfortunately, up to now,
there has been no sign of any introspection from the leaders of the
International Coalition. Or the Taliban.

When he announced the air strikes, President George Bush said: "We're a
peaceful nation." America1s favourite ambassador, Tony Blair, (who also
holds the portfolio of prime minister of the UK), echoed him: "We're a
peaceful people"

So now we know. Pigs are horses. Girls are boys. War is peace.

Speaking at the FBI headquarters a few days later, President Bush said:
"This is our calling. This is the calling of the United States of America.
The most free nation in the world. A nation built on fundamental values
that reject hate, reject violence, rejects murderers and rejects evil. We
will not tire."

Here is a list of the countries that America has been at war with - and
bombed - since the second world war: China (1945-46, 1950-53), Korea
(1950-53), Guatemala (1954, 1967-69), Indonesia (1958), Cuba (1959-60), the
Belgian Congo (1964), Peru (1965), Laos (1964-73), Vietnam (1961-73),
Cambodia (1969-70), Grenada (1983), Libya (1986), El Salvador (1980s),
Nicaragua (1980s), Panama (1989), Iraq (1991-99), Bosnia (1995), Sudan
(1998), Yugoslavia (1999). And now Afghanistan.

Certainly it does not tire - this, the most free nation in the world.

What freedoms does it uphold? Within its borders, the freedoms of speech,
religion, thought; of artistic statement, food habits, sexual preferences
(well, to some extent) and many other exemplary, wonderful things.

Outside its borders, the freedom to dominate, humiliate and subjugate
usually in the service of America1s real religion, the "free market". So
when the US government christens a war "Operation Infinite Justice", or
"Operation Enduring Freedom", we in the third world feel more than a tremor
of fear. Because we know that Infinite Justice for some means
Infinite Injustice for others. And Enduring Freedom for some means Enduring
Subjugation for others.

The International Coalition Against Terror is a largely cabal of the
richest countries in the world. Between them, they manufacture and sell
almost all of the world's weapons, they possess the largest stockpile of
weapons of mass destruction - chemical, biological and nuclear. They have
fought the most wars, account for most of the genocide, subjection, ethnic
cleansing and human rights violations in modern history, and have
sponsored, armed and financed untold numbers of dictators and despots.
Between them, they have worshipped, almost deified, the cult of violence
and war. For all its appalling sins, the Taliban just isn't in the same
league.
**END OF PART II**
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#29
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**PART III**
The Taliban was compounded in the crumbling crucible of rubble, heroin and
landmines in the backwash of the cold war. Its oldest leaders are in their
early 40s. Many of them are disfigured and handicapped, missing an eye, an
arm or a leg. They grew up in a society scarred and devastated by war.
Between the Soviet Union and America, over 20 years, about $45bn (?30bn)
worth of arms and ammunition was poured into Afghanistan. The latest
weaponry was the only shard of modernity to intrude upon a thoroughly
medireview society.

Young boys many of them orphans - who grew up in those times, had guns for
toys, never knew the security and comfort of family life, never experienced
the company of women. Now, as adults and rulers, the Taliban beat, stone,
rape and brutalise women, they don't seem to know what else to do with
them.

Years of war has stripped them of gentleness, inured them to kindness and
human compassion. Now they've turned their monstrosity on their own people.

They dance to the percussive rhythms of bombs raining down around them.

With all due respect to President Bush, the people of the world do not have
to choose between the Taliban and the US government. All the beauty of
human civilisation - our art, our music, our literature - lies beyond these
two fundamentalist, ideological poles. There is as little chance that the
people of the world can all become middle-class consumers as there is that
they will all embrace any one particular religion. The issue is not about
good v evil or Islam v Christianity as much as it is about space. About how
to accommodate diversity, how to contain the impulse towards hegemony every
kind of hegemony, economic, military, linguistic, religious and cultural.

Any ecologist will tell you how dangerous and fragile a monoculture is. A
hegemonic world is like having a government without a healthy opposition.
It becomes a kind of dictatorship. It1s like putting a plastic bag over the
world, and preventing it from breathing. Eventually, it will be torn open.

One and a half million Afghan people lost their lives in the 20 years of
conflict that preceded this new war. Afghanistan was reduced to rubble, and
now, the rubble is being pounded into finer dust. By the second day of the
air strikes, US pilots were returning to their bases without dropping their
assigned payload of bombs. As one pilot put it, Afghanistan is "not a
target-rich environment". At a press briefing at the Pentagon, Donald
Rumsfeld, the US defence secretary, was asked if America had run out of
targets.

"First we're going to re-hit targets," he said, "and second, we're not
running out of targets, Afghanistan is ..." This was greeted with gales of
laughter in the briefing room.
**END OF PART III**
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#30
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**PART IV**
By the third day of the strikes, the US defence department boasted that it
had "achieved air supremacy over Afghanistan" (Did they mean that they had
destroyed both, or maybe all 16, of Afghanistan's planes?)

On the ground in Afghanistan, the Northern Alliance - the Taliban's old
enemy, and therefore the international coalition's newest friend - is
making headway in its push to capture Kabul. (For the archives, let it be
said that the Northern Alliance's track record is not very different from
the Taliban's. But for now, because it's inconvenient, that little detail
is being glossed over.) The visible, moderate, "acceptable" leader of the
alliance, Ahmed Shah Masud, was killed in a suicide-bomb attack early in
September. The rest of the Northern Alliance is a brittle confederation of
brutal warlords, ex-communists and unbending clerics. It is a disparate
group divided along ethnic lines, some of whom have tasted power in
Afghanistan in the past.

Until the US air strikes, the Northern Alliance controlled about 5% of the
geographical area of Afghanistan. Now, with the coalition's help and "air
cover", it is poised to topple the Taliban. Meanwhile, Taliban soldiers,
sensing imminent defeat, have begun to defect to the alliance. So the
fighting forces are busy switching sides and changing uniforms. But in an
enterprise as cynical as this one, it seems to matter hardly at all.

Love is hate, north is south, peace is war.

Among the global powers, there is talk of "putting in a representative
government". Or, on the other hand, of "restoring" the kingdom to
Afghanistan's 89-year old former king Zahir Shah, who has lived in exile in
Rome since 1973. That's the way the game goes - support Saddam Hussein,
then "take him out"; finance the mojahedin, then bomb them to smithereens;
put in Zahir Shah and see if he's going to be a good boy. (Is it possible
to "put in" a representative government?
**END OF PART IV**
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#31
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**PART V**
Can you place an order for democracy - with extra cheese and jalapeno
peppers?)

Reports have begun to trickle in about civilian casualties, about cities
emptying out as Afghan civilians flock to the borders which have been
closed. Main arterial roads have been blown up or sealed off. Those who
have experience of working in Afghanistan say that by early November, food
convoys will not be able to reach the millions of Afghans (7.5m, according
to the UN) who run the very real risk of starving to death during the
course of this winter. They say that in the days that are left before
winter sets in, there can either be a war, or an attempt to reach food to
the hungry. Not both.

As a gesture of humanitarian support, the US government air-dropped 37,000
packets of emergency rations into Afghanistan. It says it plans to drop a
total of 500,000 packets. That will still only add up to a single meal for
half a million people out of the several million in dire need of food.

Aid workers have condemned it as a cynical, dangerous, public-relations
exercise. They say that air-dropping food packets is worse than futile.

First, because the food will never get to those who really need it. More
dangerously, those who run out to retrieve the packets risk being blown up
by landmines. A tragic alms race.

Nevertheless, the food packets had a photo-op all to themselves. Their
contents were listed in major newspapers. They were vegetarian, we're told,
as per Muslim dietary law (!) Each yellow packet, decorated with the
American flag, contained: rice, peanut butter, bean salad, strawberry jam,
crackers, raisins, flat bread, an apple fruit bar, seasoning, matches, a
set of plastic cutlery, a serviette and illustrated user instructions.

After three years of unremitting drought, an air-dropped airline meal in
Jalalabad! The level of cultural ineptitude, the failure to understand what
months of relentless hunger and grinding poverty really mean, the US
government1s attempt to use even this abject misery to boost its
self-image, beggars description.

Reverse the scenario for a moment. Imagine if the Taliban government was to
bomb New York City, saying all the while that its real target was the US
government and its policies. And suppose, during breaks between the
bombing, the Taliban dropped a few thousand packets containing nan and
kebabs impaled on an Afghan flag. Would the good people of New York ever
find it in themselves to forgive the Afghan government? Even if they were
hungry, even if they needed the food, even if they ate it, how would they
ever forget the insult, the condescension? Rudi Guiliani, Mayor of New York
City, returned a gift of $10m from a Saudi prince because it came with a
few words of friendly advice about American policy in the Middle East. Is
pride a luxury that only the rich are entitled to?
**END OF PART V**
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#32
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**PART VI**
Far from stamping it out, igniting this kind of rage is what creates
terrorism. Hate and retribution don't go back into the box once you've let
them out. For every "terrorist" or his "supporter" that is killed, hundreds
of innocent people are being killed too. And for every hundred innocent
people killed, there is a good chance that several future terrorists will
be created.

Where will it all lead?

Setting aside the rhetoric for a moment, consider the fact that the world
has not yet found an acceptable definition of what "terrorism" is. One
country's terrorist is too often another1s freedom fighter. At the heart of
the matter lies the world's deep-seated ambivalence towards violence.

Once violence is accepted as a legitimate political instrument, then the
morality and political acceptability of terrorists (insurgents or freedom
fighters) becomes contentious, bumpy terrain. The US government itself has
funded, armed and sheltered plenty of rebels and insurgents around the
world.

The CIA and Pakistan's ISI trained and armed the mojahedin who, in the 80s,
were seen as terrorists by the government in Soviet-occupied Afghanistan.
Today, Pakistan - America's ally in this new war - sponsors insurgents who
cross the border into Kashmir in India. Pakistan lauds them as
"freedom-fighters", India calls them "terrorists". India, for its part,
denounces countries who sponsor and abet terrorism, but the Indian army
has, in the past, trained separatist Tamil rebels asking for a homeland in
Sri Lanka - the LTTE, responsible for countless acts of bloody terrorism.

(Just as the CIA abandoned the mujahideen after they had served its
purpose, India abruptly turned its back on the LTTE for a host of political
reasons. It was an enraged LTTE suicide bomber who assassinated former
Indian prime minister Rajiv Gandhi in 1989.)

It is important for governments and politicians to understand that
manipulating these huge, raging human feelings for their own narrow
purposes may yield instant results, but eventually and inexorably, they
have disastrous consequences. Igniting and exploiting religious sentiments
for reasons of political expediency is the most dangerous legacy that
governments or politicians can bequeath to any people - including their
own.

People who live in societies ravaged by religious or communal bigotry know
that every religious text - from the Bible to the Bhagwad Gita - can be
mined and misinterpreted to justify anything, from nuclear war to genocide
to corporate globalizations.

This is not to suggest that the terrorists who perpetrated the outrage on
September 11 should not be hunted down and brought to book. They must be.

But is war the best way to track them down? Will burning the haystack find
you the needle? Or will it escalate the anger and make the world a living
hell for all of us?

At the end of the day, how many people can you spy on, how many bank
accounts can you freeze, how many conversations can you eavesdrop on, how
many emails can you intercept, how many letters can you open, how many
phones can you tap? Even before September 11, the CIA had accumulated more
information than is humanly possible to process. (Sometimes, too much data
can actually hinder intelligence - small wonder the US spy satellites
completely missed the preparation that preceded India's nuclear tests in
1998.)
**END OF PART VI**
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#33
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**PART VII**
The sheer scale of the surveillance will become a logistical, ethical and
civil rights nightmare. It will drive everybody clean crazy. And freedom -
that precious, precious thing - will be the first casualty. It's already
hurt and haemorrhaging dangerously.

Governments across the world are cynically using the prevailing paranoia to
promote their own interests. All kinds of unpredictable political forces
are being unleashed. In India, for instance, members of the All India
People's Resistance Forum, who were distributing anti-war and anti-US
pamphlets in Delhi, have been jailed. Even the printer of the leaflets was
arrested.

The rightwing government (while it shelters Hindu extremists groups such as
the Vishwa Hindu Parishad and the Bajrang Dal) has banned the Islamic
Students Movement of India and is trying to revive an anti- terrorist Act
which had been withdrawn after the Human Rights Commission reported that it
had been more abused than used. Millions of Indian citizens are Muslim. Can
anything be gained by alienating them?

Every day that the war goes on, raging emotions are being let loose into
the world. The international press has little or no independent access to
the war zone. In any case, mainstream media, particularly in the US, have
more or less rolled over, allowing themselves to be tickled on the stomach
with press handouts from military men and government officials. Afghan
radio stations have been destroyed by the bombing. The Taliban has always
been deeply suspicious of the press. In the propaganda war, there is no
accurate estimate of how many people have been killed, or how much
destruction has taken place. In the absence of reliable information, wild
rumours spread.

Put your ear to the ground in this part of the world, and you can hear the
thrumming, the deadly drumbeat of burgeoning anger. Please. Please, stop
the war now. Enough people have died. The smart missiles are just not smart
enough. They're blowing up whole warehouses of suppressed fury.

President George Bush recently boasted, "When I take action, I'm not going
to fire a $2m missile at a $10 empty tent and hit a camel in the butt. It's
going to be decisive." President Bush should know that there are no targets
in Afghanistan that will give his missiles their money's worth. Perhaps, if
only to balance his books, he should develop some cheaper missiles to use
on cheaper targets and cheaper lives in the poor countries of the world.
But then, that may not make good business sense to the coalition1s weapons
manufacturers. It wouldn't make any sense at all, for example, to the
Carlyle Group - described by the Industry Standard as "the world's largest
private equity firm", with $13bn under management.
**END OF PART VII**
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#34
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СеЖо получает предупреждение за нарушение п.2.2.11 Правил.
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#35
minimalist

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гардиан - английская газета. статья написана натурализовавшимся английским индусом, судя по всему. таких статей море было.
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#36
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и два последних поста...

**PART VIII**
Carlyle invests in the defence sector and makes its money from military
conflicts and weapons spending. Carlyle is run by men with impeccable redentials. Former US defence secretary Frank Carlucci is Carlyle's chairman and managing director (he was a college roommate of Donald Rumsfeld's). Carlyle's other partners include former US secretary of state James A Baker III, George Soros and Fred Malek (George Bush Sr's campaign manager). An American paper the Baltimore Chronicle and Sentinel - says that former president George Bush Sr is reported to be seeking investments for the Carlyle Group from Asian markets.
He is reportedly paid not inconsiderable sums of money to make
"presentations" to potential government-clients.
Ho hum. As the tired saying goes, it's all in the family.
Then there's that other branch of traditional family business - oil. Remember, President George Bush (Jr) and Vice-President Dick Cheney both
made their fortunes working in the US oil industry.
Turkmenistan, which borders the north-west of Afghanistan, holds the world's third largest gas reserves and an estimated six billion barrels of oil reserves. Enough, experts say, to meet American energy needs for the next 30 years (or a developing country's energy requirements for a couple of centuries.)
America has always viewed oil as a security consideration, and protected it
by any means it deems necessary. Few of us doubt that its military presence
in the Gulf has little to do with its concern for human rights and almost entirely to do with its strategic interest in oil.
Oil and gas from the Caspian region currently moves northward to European markets. Geographically and politically, Iran and Russia are major impediments to American interests. In 1998, Dick Cheney - then CEO of Halliburton, a major player in the oil industry - said, "I can't think of a time when we've had a region emerge as suddenly to become as strategically significant as the Caspian. It's almost as if the opportunities have arisen overnight." True enough. For some years now, an American oil giant called Unocal has been negotiating with the Taliban for permission to construct an oil pipeline through Afghanistan to Pakistan and out to the Arabian sea. From here, Unocal hopes to access the lucrative "emerging markets" in south and south-east Asia. In December 1997, a delegation of Taliban mullahs travelled to America and even met US state department officials and Unocal executives in Houston. At that time the Taliban's taste for public executions and its treatment of Afghan women were not made.
**END OF PART VIII**
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**PART IX**
Over the next six months, pressure from hundreds of outraged American
feminist groups was brought to bear on the Clinton administration. Fortunately, they managed to scuttle the deal. And now comes the US oil industry's big chance. In America, the arms industry, the oil industry, the major media networks, and, indeed, US foreign policy, are all controlled by the same business combines. Therefore, it would be foolish to expect this talk of guns and oil and defence deals to get any real play in the media. In any case, to a distraught, confused people whose pride has just been wounded, whose loved ones have been tragically killed, whose anger is fresh and sharp, the inanities about the "clash of civilisations" and the "good v evil" discourse home in unerringly. They are cynically doled out by government spokesmen like a daily dose of vitamins or anti-depressants. Regular medication ensures that mainland America continues to remain the enigma it has always been - a curiously insular people, administered by a pathologically meddlesome, promiscuous government.
And what of the rest of us, the numb recipients of this onslaught of what
we know to be preposterous propaganda? The daily consumers of the lies and
brutality smeared in peanut butter and strawberry jam being air-dropped
into our minds just like those yellow food packets. Shall we look away and
eat because we're hungry, or shall we stare unblinking at the grim theatre
unfolding in Afghanistan until we retch collectively and say, in one voice,
that we have had enough?
As the first year of the new millennium rushes to a close, one wonders -
have we forfeited our right to dream? Will we ever be able to re-imagine
beauty?
Will it be possible ever again to watch the slow, amazed blink of a newborn gecko in the sun, or whisper back to the marmot who has just whispered in your ear - without thinking of the World Trade Centre and Afghanistan?
**END OF PART IX**

© Arundhati Roy
Guardian Unlimited
© Guardian Newspapers Limited 2001

пс: глупо не осозновать тот факт, что америка - великая держава в экономическом и политическом плане. однако ее [псевдо]демократия есть всего лишь раскрученный бренд. америка - это страна ярлыков, клише и всевозможных мифических "-кратий", саморучно созданных и подкармливаемых правящей там верхушкой для прикрытия своих "демократических" целей.
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#38
СеЖо

СеЖо
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гардиан - английская газета. статья написана натурализовавшимся английским индусом, судя по всему. таких статей море было.


индус-натурал погоду не делает. дело не в эмоциях, а в фактах, приведенных в статье.
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#39
СеЖо

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ПИС ПИПЛ, НЕ ГРУЗИТЕСЬ.

Сообщение отредактировал СеЖо: 03.09.2003, 16:14:56

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#40
RustOs

RustOs
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пс: глупо не осозновать тот факт, что америка - великая держава в экономическом и политическом плане.  однако ее [псевдо]демократия есть всего лишь раскрученный бренд.  америка - это страна ярлыков, клише и всевозможных мифических "-кратий", саморучно созданных и подкармливаемых правящей там верхушкой для прикрытия своих "демократических" целей.

"пах, пах, пах, слющай, как красыва гаварыщ!!"
Согласен и всегда вспоминаю слова нашего академика насчет того, что про социализм нам то врали, но про капитализм (США как его олицетворение) говорили то правду.

Насчет террактов... а что остается делать тем, кто не в силах противостоять военной машине США (России) на поле брани? Смотреть на то, как их режут как баранов, устанавливая едиснтвенно правильный с точки зрения сильного порядок? Или все-таки дать отпор хоть и таким методом?
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